Make the Networking IK toggle-able
closed
Reanna Potz
Currently Networking IK is becoming a problem for all players, and I don't know if it's possible however if it is, I'd like for the Networking IK to be toggle-able.
This never got put into a beta, and now many users are suffering due to the changes, some of which we are unsure of the possibility of solving it.
All I and others ask, Is you make it toggle-able in any way possible.
Stealing from Discord, another user said
"Personally i think the networked IK should be an optional thing, such as for users with low end systems or, Quest, whereas users that don't mind the plausible lag caused by the standard IK should be allowed to opt out of networked IK
This would essentially be the best for both worlds"
All these problems have already been listed, but giving us the ability to toggle it would be big help even if it was only for the duration that the issues remained.
- Other players are Jittery
- Pens don't seem to function right
- Constant disconnecting for a big amount of players
And so forth.
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Ruuubick - Designer
closed
Kitty
Honestly I would love the old IK system back, I live in australia, so the network IK is absolutely terrible. and ever since they added it without testing it, all there has come from it is problem after problem as you have stated.
JakEne
To avoid the commonly cited issue of double sending data, this could instead be world based with PC only worlds using the old version. No toggle
Rantis
Making the IK networking system a toggle would mean re-implementing the old system and having them run at the same time in the background, this would make both systems preform worse.
Cibbi
Rantis: not how it works... the new system is based on the "old" final ik, long story short you take the bone movements you generate with your ik and sent it over network, other people instead of the usual ik have one that's driven by that data instead of being calculated, but the "old" system is still here since is how we locally generate our ik position to then send over...
Rantis
Cibbi: Yeah but that datas gonna be sent to you regardless, and since vrchats been reworked for network ik theres certain events the games expecting to have network data for so its not like you can just set it to not recieve player anim data otherwise world stuff will get desynced, what your saying is that all players should send their rotation data to everyone while at the same time calculating everyone's IK. Do you not see how this can maybe cause a performance hit and make the whole endeavor pointless? It would be nice but its not feasible without a MAJOR overhaul.
Cibbi
Rantis: never said that everyone should send to everyone and also calculate their own ik, what i said was that they wouldn't need to reimplement anything since the old system is still ingame, so the whole problem would just be finding a way to make them both work without major unexpected behaviours
If you want my opinion they should just remove networked ik for now since is only a source of problems and/or annoyance for a LOT of people.
Rantis
Cibbi: unfortunately the network IK is the ONLY way quest can work at all, so they cant roll it back without retooling the old system for quest first. I dont see them doing that.
Event Horizon~
I could see that working. The PC clients however would need to send the precalculated data plus the raw data.The receiving user could then decide which one he would use. raw should be default for pc users while networked would be used for quest or people on pc who disabled it for performance reasons. The only downside I can see is that it would require a little more bandwith.
As far as I'm aware the performance cost comes from calculating the IK of others on the own pc. Not for sending data that is available anyway.
ImTiara
Issue is. Oculus probably paid vrchat so they can make it work with the quest. This means that the vrchat team do not give a single crap about you or any issues the 99% pc players gets affected by this. Quite hilarious but sad at the same time to see how the dev team slowly trashes their game
Rak
Sad but true
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Anxy
ImTiara: Even though networked IK is better in the end game than the old ik, better performance wise. The quest had nothing to do with the networked IK
B
Besa
Anxy: It was likely pushed out early and unfinished because of the imminent quest release so yes, it has something to do with it. As for the ik, people can get better specs, but the network infrastructure of their place doesn't depend on them, if in the long run the ik doesn't improve it doesn't make sense to use it for the pc version/worlds. The ik wasn't the only thing that was causing lag so even if the local ik comes back the game can still become more optimized over time as they fix other issues.
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Anxy
Besa: yes i understand that but since the last update the IK has gotten better, they have even said there is still alot of room for improvement.
Rak
Anxy: Tupper himself stated that the Quest's release gave them a kick in the pants to get networked IK out the door.
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Anxy
Rak: yes that is true.... but people act as if it they made it specifically for the quest, which is not the case.
dj3520
This largely seems like taking a step backwards. Either way certain joints are going to be sent over the network. And the amount of bandwidth to send positional data should not be large. A single thumbnail would be a much bigger download. Also this would mean most people's clients are sending this information out anyway and people are able to simply ignore it. The new system needs fixed, not thrown out in my opinion. It is objectively better, just not right now due to how it's been implemented.
Reanna Potz
dj3520: I dont want it thrown out I want it optional for the people who are suffering due to it.
PC
dj3520: It's not objectively better, just has a higher potential for performance and accuracy. even if it was the same latency I don't see them fixing the jitter without some really sketchy workaround or approximation. Which is only fine if it's optional
dj3520
Reanna Potz: Making it optional adds more complexity and means both systems have to be added at the same time to allow switching back and forth. Realistically there's no reason to add an option as people's clients would be sending out the same information regardless. Bringing the old system back is taking a step backwards, which at this point isn't possible due to the Quest. It's a new system and the development team is figuring it out. As I write this, there's a beta out that has the Networked IK tweaked. I'm sure the development team would appreciate feedback on the difference between the IK in the beta and non-beta versions.
dj3520
PC: I'd imagine both systems had the same accuracy, but performance gains are in the design. But again, adding both systems in means getting the benefits of neither. It's a new system and they're well aware of the issues and are working towards improving the current system as it has potential to become better than the old one.
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Anxy
dj3520: from what I’ve seen the beta seems to have fixed a lot of ik problems. But I also don’t know how many people test it so it’s hard to tell.
CurtisVL
In all honesty, this is likely impossible.
Networked IK will be sent to all players regardless of if a user toggles it off, it wouldn't make sense for all clients in an instance to 'decide' if they should send that or the legacy system to individual players.
Networked IK is the way forward, both for performance and accuracy.
I wouldn't have expected the internal team of testers to have noticed latency issues, they likely just checked that it worked, which it does in 99% of scenarios, the latency isn't noticable unless you're trying to do something in-sync with another user.
They'll patch it in time, it'll be high priority considering networked IK performance is crucial for the Quest. :)
Reanna Potz
CurtisVL: I understand it'll be sent out and as I wrote that'd be the plan, what would be different is instead of bringing in others, youd calculate it on your system.
Networked IK is good when done properly and currently, it's not done properly at all. This would be a temporary fix.
CurtisVL
Reanna Potz: Sorry, I suck at explaining stuff!
My point is that they'd have to make other clients send the legacy IK data, rather than the new data.
As no IK calculations are done on your local system anymore, I assume what is basically a whole body pose is sent instead, so this wouldn't contain the normal 3+ points of tracking that the legacy system used. The delay we see is more than likely introduced by the amount of time it takes to produce and send the pose data as it's A LOT more than just a few points of tracking, so it'd be equally as delayed anyway. :p
I think if anything it's just easier for them to rollback the networked IK update entirely, but until then I can just hope they're working on solutions to the issues.
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Anxy
CurtisVL: I doubt they would roll it back, considering this would be the 2nd roll back if they did. They will probably just patch it in the next update and hopefully fix it. Because as you said “it is crucial to the quest”
CurtisVL
Anxy: Yeah, my thoughts exactly. :p
T
Tenshinen
CurtisVL: Been waiting a couple months now, no fixes still. Still eats up a few hundred kilobytes of my already slow connection. Still makes my pen drawings impossible to read, and with often 3+ second reaction times to anything I do. I've had actually zero improvements from the networked IK, since the game runs locked at 45 fps most of the time anyway.
OhBaNoBa
I went from hanging out with 11 full body users to being kicked to home when four join. My processor was perfectly happy rendering everyone's IK. I totally understand the need for the quest and the usefulness of the ""option"" of a networked IK for PC users. But forcing networked IK systems on users that don't have the bandwidth is taking the social out of vrchat.
Please just give us a checkbox in the settings menu.
狐小百合
I disagree because handwriting and such NEEDS to work for both PC and Quest users, its an important part of the VRChat experience not to mention an accessibility issue (not everyone is capable of talking, etc.). A better system overall needs to be developed.
Reanna Potz
狐小百合: This would be an option until they fix it. Not a permanent option
Kitty
狐小百合: hand writing breaks if you do it too fast BECAUSE of network IK though.....
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