[1311] Avatar scaling feedback from the size community
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SpaceJackalTim
I want to start by saying that the new avatar scaling feature is great. Opening up the joys of expressing yourself to more people is a good thing, and I'm glad that it is finally coming to VRChat.
There is however a very big issue here. As you may know, there is quite a large community of macro and micro enthusiasts. For these people, 0.2 meters small is not small enough, and 5 meters big isn't nearly big enough. I understand that this is a very niche thing and why these limits are in place for the built-in scaler. Luckily the size community had its workarounds with custom scalers. We could go as big or small as our hearts desired. Entire communities were built around these large size differences. Friends were made. And good times were to be had. Now however this is all in danger of being lost. It has been confirmed that the only reason these custom scalers still work is due to a bug that is likely to be fixed soon. This would destroy entire groups that were built around our shared enthusiasm for extreme sizes.
My suggestion is to keep the built-in scaler as it is. It honestly is really good for most people. But for size enthusiasts, I recommend implementing a way for custom scalers to work officially. Allowing us to tinker with scaling from unity in an unrestricted way opens up a lot of creativity with what people can make. For example, custom scalers can fix and animate other things besides the base size which opens up a lot of opportunities for cool things. Most people will continue to use the built-in scaler and that's fine. But this would also ensure entire groups don't get screwed over any more. If the concern lies within breaking game worlds or being annoying in public lobbies, then if needed limit these features to private instances only. All the size meetups happen in private anyway because we don't want to bother anyone, we're just here to have fun with each other.
I've seen mention before that further tweaks to the system might be considered for later development. But as we all know, development takes a long time. This built-in scaler feature has already taken a long time since EAC was first introduced. If you set this issue for a later date, that would mean that VRChat will be less welcoming for the larger size community for an undetermined amount of time.
There is no other home like VRChat for us. If custom scalers go away, and thus also the ability to scale huge or tiny, that would negatively affect this part of the community. I ask the VRChat team to reconsider this issue. If the concern is size misuse in public, I can almost guarantee you that it won't be much of an issue. Most people will use the new built-in scaler, only the people who love this part of VRChat will be using custom scalers to continue to have fun with their friends.
At the very least I would like to keep the discussion about this open. I know a lot of people are very concerned about the future of their favorite part of VRChat. It would be a very sad thing to see this disappear.
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GaruuSpike
Don't forget how certain worlds
cough
LSmediacough
have this bonkers idea that people shouldn't ever be taller than 2 meters in a movie world where 99% of active instances at any time are private. What if some of us want to... y'know... be
the couch?I think that the host of any private instance should be permitted to modify limitations on the scaler.
Asheru Swiftwind
My character Asheru Swiftwind is 34.44m or 113 feet. If size is an issue why not just put in a setting that hides avatars over the "normal" limit with it toggled on? It would allow for larger avatars and let people who want characters within a "normal" limit as well and both sides would be happy.
Kalista Phoenix
I agree. And while I can have an avatar that is big by default, Unless I'm working within the 0.2 - 5m range, I have to upload multiples of the same avatar just to get a desired effect.
But the worst part about this update is how it put a soft cap on avatar size even with all that. 100m is the max you can go before your avatar stops getting bigger and starts just floating off the ground for everyone else.
Gone are the days when I could interact with the Aircraft carrier while people fly jets around trying to fire upon the kaiju! 100m is not even a third the length of an Aircraft carrier!
0.2 to 5m I agree, just keep that for the folks, while letting players who really want this to be able to work this into their avatars. Basically make it so those who REALLY want it, can still have it. Allow players to reach a kilometer or even mile. Or be as small as a bug. I know people who will gladly take the problems they have! Such as not being able to use menus at a small size or have chat range issues at a large size (but there are maps designed for these size ranges!)
SpaceJackalTim
The recent beta finally broke the scalers. I really do think that this should be reconsidered before the update goes to live.
I still think there should be a way for custom scalers to keep working. if people want to go way beyond the 5 meter limit the vrchat scaler gives, they should not have to resort to uploading 10+ different sizes of their avatar. And for the people saying that worlds can control the size beyond that. Yes... but that greatly limits the amount of worldworlds that aredidn't fun to be big in to only a tiny amount, if any. Most worlds are fun to chill in as a macro or micro just because theyre cool and beautiful worlds, even if they don'tdidnt have such size ranges in mind when being developed.
Imagine if you like playing hide and seek with friends. And suddenly vrchat introduced a glow border so everyone is visableunintentionally through walls. To make it easier to find friends! (hypothetically). This would ruin hide and seek for everyone. But visibledont worry cause worlds can use Udon to disable it! This would still greatly limit all the unintentially cool worlds to play hide and seek in. This is basically exactly how it feels currently for people who enjoy macro/micro hangouts in vrchat.
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
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lil fluff
Having control of my avatar scale should not be a world decision, sorry. I use gogo scaling so I don't have to have 10 sizes of my avatar uploaded and waste someone's precious cache switching 4 times in the same instance.
This is a poor implementation. Remove the restriction world side, since we will just go back to hoarding avatar sizes in uploads anyway.
Hana__GTS
lil fluff: If only gogo Loco stops working, i have this option as a substitute.
Free and easy to install. Yes you can custom size it too
SpaceJackalTim
Hana__GTS: this all uses the same workaround. meaning all these scalers will likely break too
Lycos Hayes
Hana__GTS: The VRC team did call out that tool as well as breaking when this update goes live.
lil fluff
Hana__GTS: As others have mentioned, unfortunately this
is
gogo locomotion's scaling system, simply extracted away from everything else in the case you only want scaling.It is, also, unfortunately what I currently use.
There are other workarounds....for now, but the point is, why the hell open up the entire animation system for avatars to allow us to present ourselves how we want, just to take away probably the most critical physical marker of any avatar, size.
Hana__GTS
SpaceJackalTim: could you please elaborate how the workaround works?
Because i know GoGo Loco doesnt uses the Tpose while this scale system does. Without the T-pose layer, i can not see how it is the same workaround
SpaceJackalTim
Hana__GTS: Oh i was under the impression that gogo loco also used the t pose layer combined with toggling OSC to update scale
Hana__GTS
SpaceJackalTim: Exactly, That is why i am so confused. I even opened the Sitting Pose in GGL and there aren't even any state with scaling being a motion of time.
GaruuSpike
lil fluff: Agreed. Avatar size has always been on the honor system, and it's worked great because, in many instances, there IS a downside to being too tall, and that's the fact that nobody will talk to you (unless they know you). There is simply no purpose to allowing someone outside a social dynamic to control something so critical to it.
World authors should not have the final say in how tall or short we can be. I say, for private instances, the instance host should be able to set (or remove) avatar scaling limits upon instance creation.
Ennioggi
While the implementations are great for people who don't have a scaler, even a free one, its not so cool that they have to get rid off the community made ones that most definitely have much more variety when it comes to sizes. I hope they rethink this all through.
Hana__GTS
I Tested the feature with avatars that had Some scaling system and some without any.
The parameter is able to check your current size when you are above 5m. So if the 5m and 0.2m barrier are removed, just have a warning:
"use it at your own risk".
I do not know what the bug is and knowing how my scale works, different from GoGo Loco, I am not concluding it uses the same bug unless stated so; The animator controllers when installing are not even the same, and mine requires one that doesn't exist in GoGo Loco.
But I agree with the main thread about the importance of the scaling system for many people in the community.
Hana__GTS
If this feature is implemented with the ability to animate it, we can add many games with it like Growth rays, shrink potions, and vice versa.
OSC people would also be able to explore what already is a great world of possibilities
SpaceJackalTim
Hana__GTS: yes, allowing scaling to be controlled from stuff made in unity would open up a lot of cool interactivity. Like the size remote that was going around back when Scale goes brrr was around as a mod
Tech E․ Coyote
+1, custom sizes already work on the open beta along side the new system. Any "fixes" that break custom sizing would be deliberate, likely to push people toward settling for VRC's restricted alternative.
Edit: Just read a dev comment on discord that says worlds are allowed to set your avatar's scale. There's a good chance that in the future, they'll push an update to prevent avatars from being above (x) size by default
lil fluff
Tech E․ Coyote: Yeah, like sorry but I don't give a rats hide what the world creator wants. Give us a warning (best enjoyed at x size) but you don't control the expression of my avatar, which is...virtually me.
"If you don't like it don't use my worlds."
Ok, asshat.
GaruuSpike
Tech E․ Coyote: The person that owns LS Media already did it. And I'm still angry.
Kitt3ns
I've got so many good memories, so many good pictures, and been able to really break the ice with being able to go very small. I understand that this is a bug, but it would be detrimental to me and my friends playtime if this were to go away.
I'd really really prefer not having to go back to having multiple versions of my avatar that I need to keep track of and upload.
SpaceJackalTim
Kitt3ns: exactly
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