Allow sitting in your own station
closed
lin
Players have recently discovered that you can sit in your own station, and it has enabled new creative avatars and fun activities. Since there were no observed negative side effects of sitting in your own station, and it enabled creativity and fun, it would be good if we could do this using the component instead of with a work around.
As I understand, the dev team is removing the method to sit in your own station. The reasoning seems to be that some of the dev team do not like flying, which is something you can do by sitting in a station. The most obvious and likely fix will not only break stuff you can do with stations, but other interesting things you can do with avatars. Rather than ruining the fun activity, and breaking the avatars people care about, you could give world creators the option to restrict stations, and officially support sitting in your own station. Please consider this, or at least give some reasoning about the decision to break this for avatar creators despite the lack of observed negative side effects. Thanks.
Many creators I know are feeling burned again, and feel like they have to hide things from the dev team moving forward, because there is no cooperation, trust, or shared interest.
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giuLio.moreLLi
ofc the devs ruin their game again more and more
Zer0ᵛʳ
damn, guess there is nothing left to say besides get someone in your team that is close to the community and actually knows whats going on. All these people below are good and wholesome people you should take a look at cause they are the trend setters creating the real good stuff that will make it on stream/youtube and get viral.
Other than that I'm glad we have that many smart people in this community using every little bit of freedom we get to create cool stuff for everyone to make this game less mirror simulator <3
RetroGEO
Ah yes, you'll implement your own thing to fix our non issue?
Just like, say, IK_Follower?
Cause you did a real bang up job on that one didn't you. If these are the kinds of solutions we can expect from you guys I'd rather break it myself.
狐小百合
RetroGEO: I'm half tempted to open a request to disable jumping since people can still climb walls
B
Besa
No fun allowed
Neonie
I would really hope the devs would actually read these posts, realize not a single one of them are positive because of how utterly bullheaded and stupid the decision to remove this was, and QUICKLY reverse the decision.
But at this point I have absolutly no faith in the VR Chat devs to actually do the right thing by their community. They've only removed features and broken things that worked as intended (flying avatars and the IK, respectively) without repair.
I don't know why the dev team continues to only make VR Chat a worse, more rigid, less creative game at every turn. It truly boggles my mind.
Also, since facial expressions on emotes also weren't intentional, when are those getting removed?
RetroGEO
Neonie: or how about fixing the button exploit world makers use
Or full body allowing you to clip through walls, after all that's "unintended behaviour"
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community
closed
The bug that caused this behavior was fixed in 2019.3.2p1.
We know that this kind of stuff being removed isn't a great feeling. Trust us-- we're the ones patching it, after all. We want to enable creativity and let users do amazing things, but we want to do it in a manner where both world and avatar authors retain control over their creations. We also want to implement it in a way where us at VRChat can support the systems instead of worrying about seemingly unrelated patches breaking these types of tricks. That's basically what happened with Stations on Avatars-- a bug resulted in cool emergent behavior, but we couldn't support it officially until we spent time implementing it in a way that we can continue to support it.
"Enabling expression" is one of our core values, but we want to do so without causing problems for our other creators. This method in particular removes control from the world author's point of view, and severely limits the ability of users to create games, experiences, or other content without having to worry about someone breaking it via clipping around the world-- along with other safety or security concerns. Although this method of locomotion certainly falls into the "cool emergent behavior" bucket, it does so while also breaking expectations for other creators. That isn't something we want-- world creators should always, ALWAYS have control over how players interact with their world.
We're working on methods to allow all kinds of custom locomotion (including locomotion like what this enabled), avatar features, and more-- but we have to ask for your patience. We know there's a lot of things we've asked you to be patient for, and it can be really frustrating waiting on your favorite thing to finally make it into VRChat. Implementing these kinds of systems in a way where we can let the community explore them organically, let world creators retain control, AND while still letting us support them can take time-- and we've got quite a few projects on the table.
Jesse Marshall
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: see you in like a year when this actually gets implemented, hopefully I wont get bored of murder and sitting in front of a mirror all day.
D
DG-191
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community:
Cibbi
Jesse Marshall: i'm still waiting for my final ik fix btw, let's add this one to the list on never going to get released features.
And also waiting on full body tracking removal since "world creators should always have control over how players interact with their world".
Khos
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: We've been waiting years for cool avatar features and all we got were chairs.
Avatar creators has been the driving force of what made this damn game popular to begin with. People were attracted to the game because they saw video clips of all the cool things people could do with their avatars. They could be anyone and anything. Every new player who joins will go straight to avatar worlds or try to figure out how to make their own, checking worlds out later. Yet avatar creators get shafted the most.
World creators are avatar creators too. Two sides of the same coin. Punish one side and it may demotivate them produce anything at all. I know I've had several adventure world ideas but I don't want to make them because I'm just so disheartened by the constant limiting of avatar features that my creative drive for this game just died. WE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN
Kaj
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: "world creators should always, ALWAYS have control over how players interact with their world."
This is one design philosophy that I feel is completely wrong. VRChat is structured so anyone can create an instance of any world and enjoy it the way they want to. VRChat is not dedicated server based where worlds have single instances that are closely moderated.
People "break experiences" in worlds all the time. This is a sandbox game where people can be anything and do anything. If people want to abide by the rules of a game world to play a game they can. If they want to bend the rules of the game with something on an avatar, they can and will. "Letting world creators retain control" should not even be a consideration when making design decisions for vrchat, imo. This feels like you're letting worlds authors say "You're only allowed to enjoy this the way I want you to enjoy it."
Eremite
Jesse Marshall:
Yakubson
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: How can someone who is a "community manager" be so out of touch with their community?
How are the devs still not able to see what their users want despite multiple canny posts from their users?
I have never experienced a dev team so out of touch with their core users, i look at the top posts on the feature requests and not one of them has been succesfully fulfilled despite having hundreds of votes (despite being active for months or years). Why do you limit the people who drive your game the most?
狐小百合
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: If you wanted world owners to have control over the worlds you would've added a way to enable and disable this patch per world, and for this setting to enable and disable the related official feature whenever it is implemented.
lin
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: That's the sort of answer I was worried about. Waiting for you guys to remove all the other things that enable clipping through the map.
Asdfguy86
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community:
Cibbi
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: if you care about game breaking bugs then you should try again with these chairs, since now they're even more broken https://vrchat.canny.io/bug-reports/p/fix-the-goddamn-chairs
PutPut
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Wish the team would move faster on actual gamebreaking issues.
Graelyth
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Just to remind you players in stations can still be affected by triggers so world creators not having control is false. I'm tired of constantly being reminded of how detached you are from the playerbase. Think a little more about things that offer a great deal of creativity to your community and maybe try letting people have some fun for a while. If you'd like to implement something better, fine. Why rob fun from the rest of us who don't mind it the way it is...
RetroGEO
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Holy shit. Even I'm almost starting to feel bad for how much you're being put on absolute booty blast right now.
Almost
GotoFinal
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: you say that you guys work on features like that yet this feature requests got closed instead of being accepted... And also broke something else in the process making my avatar useless too, even tho it wasn't using any bugs, thanks.
azami
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Apologizing isn't good enough. Removing amazing features because of speculation bad things will happen isn't good enough. Establishing full control of the world by world authors isn't what people want and it will never work like that. You need to take a step back, stop thinking of ways to justify what was 1 developer going "bug must fix", and take a look at what people actually want to do in your game.
You have a community that would be VERY understanding if you needed to remove this in the future due to another core feature changing in vrchat so long as it's EXPLAINED to us when you do it. This was explained and everyone I know unanimously agreed that it just wasn't a good enough reason.
At this point I think it's just ignorance and stubbornness from whoever is in charge of this decision.
rollthered
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: Going to have to agree with everyone else here. Being able to sit in your own station was the one thing I was excited for and now its removed. I get that its not polished. I get that its not "intended behavior". I completely understand that in an environment where so much could go wrong that has barely any similarity to this could influence this decision. Bugs bugs bugs I know. But out of respect for VRChat as a whole and for all that it has meant for me in the past I need to be honest and voice my opinion here. Please keep your promise and eventually get this as a feature in the future. This patch has pretty much made a lot of the user base disheartened.
Unbøund Creatør
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: no wonder your games player bsse went from a soaring what? Around 10k players? And as you started adding unecessary features, removing things that people and content creators enjoyed, the fact you just were not able to keep up in making the vrchat experience safe but meanwhile client makers were able to do that in a far more simple way than what the vrchat dev team implemented, a ranking system in a social game, such great idea, meanwhile you could have just made it to where you can turn things off for everyone and you choose what to turn on for single targeted individuals. But now look at vrchat, player base is dwindling. Even with the rank system players still sit in constant private worlds (using your game as online virtual sex), all the popular worlds now only have a max of probably 100 to maybe a lil over 1000 people. Removing this feature that looks completely harmless is only destroying the foundation that is vrchat once again. "People flying with a system they figured out in unity with their own brain? Oh no, no, no, lets remove that completely from the game because we dont want anyone having fun flying in their avatar legitimately without a client." Like grow up, let the smart people of your playerbase have fun, your whole development team probably doesnt know what the hell fun is. It is never right to make sudden changes that impact the community or your "loyal players," it is better to compromise and actually >>>listen<<< to what the community actually wants as a whole, not just a specific few people that are of no significance to everyone. Do something right and listen to your community, not just the very few people that you think are important when what is important is what the player want themselves.
poplopo
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: It makes sense for the dev team of an application to have deliberate and intentional control over its features. Keep up the good work, dev team! <3 I think the majority of players (not the vocal minority here screaming at you) are happy to wait for well-constructed and designed additions to the platform.
lin
poplopo: this vocal minority generate a lot of content for this game. It's easy to not relate when you haven't used the platform as much. There wasn't anything gained for anyone here. This was a genuinely bad decision
Zer0ᵛʳ
Tupper - VRChat Head of Community: if world creators should have control over each player, you should stop clients too, since like everyone is using one to fly around everywhere anyways, also fullbody and playspace move is already an easy way to look behind walls or fly up/down
lin
xxx_red_xxx
lin: I saw that avatar and really wanted to know how it worked so I could use it for a jet fighter I was working on. Thanks vrchat for removing even more fun things.
Nekotaku
What is "sit in your own station"?
Eremite
Nekotaku: station = chairs. They're called VRC_Station in the SDK
Nekotaku
Eremite: Ok thanks. But are we talking about chairs on avatars?
RetroGEO
Nekotaku: Yes.
xxx_red_xxx
I missed this from the first time they enabled seats on avatars too early but you had to attach it to a fixed joint or you would spiral out of control.
Maxwell Rodgers
Just seems to me that VRChat Devs look at the small picture not seeing how their actions effect others, and yeah, I get it, Majority over the Minority, but come on, on this one, the Majority likes this, and you still rather remove it? Devs, please keep this in mind, you stop creators from creating harmless fun with advanced avatars, you are going to create a black market of sorts to keep you out of the loop.
RetroGEO
Maxwell Rodgers: Trust me, we already very much keep them out of the loop. We have to. They complain about not being told about stuff when they act like this whenever we share anything.
Like this is not rocket science, I have no desire to ever show the devs anything ever again for fear of nonsensical removal and that being the norm is the clearest sign of their hostility I can find.
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