Invisibility disallowed in private rooms
poplopo
Although I'm not sure if it's documented anywhere, it has been generally disclosed to users in the past that mods have the ability to enter any room in VRChat invisibly. If this is still the case, it seems like a reasonable moderation tool for public and friends+ rooms. It is also reasonable for mods to have access of entry to any and all rooms in VRChat.
However, if a room is set to private, the ability of a moderator to be invisible there is inappropriate. There are plenty of situations in which users would want to ensure that their interactions and conversation are truly private. It is in the users' best interests therefore for all users in an invite-only private space to know if an additional listening ear or observing eye is in the room. This could be handled either by disallowing invisibility, or with some visual indicator that an invisible user is present.
This will allow users to ensure that their interactions are confidential when they want them to be, and give them the choice to select what information they want to disclose based on the parties they know are listening. This measure of privacy would be in the user's best interests and would facilitate VRChat's role as a trusted platform for the community and its interactions.
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owlboy
An update on this would be _fantastic_. The attached screenshot is from May 5th 2018.
Lyuma
Wow poplopo had the foresight to file that canny over 2 years ago: this issue is now more relevant than ever, as VR starts to become more accessible to wider audiences and where communication products continue to provide strong guarantees of privacy, see WhatsApp for an extreme example. This issue actually strikes at the heart of what is scary about the VRChat platform as a user: a fundamental lack of privacy, even in invite only.
Now mods have not ever abused their invisible status, to our knowledge. But the very fact that they can abuse it does come up in conversations, and likely has had real impact in the use of the platform, knowingly or unknowingly.
A strong privacy guarantee would be a boon to the use of the platform in instances where privacy isn't just a desire but say an obligation, and a couple small improvements to invite only worlds in this regard could go a long way.
This is not asking for End-to-End encryption like in whatsapp, which is not feasible to implement... but a combination of two things, one policy and one technical:
- Release notes and/or changes to the privacy policy clarifying the policy for invite only instances, and
- Technical restrictions on the developers joining private instances, and where restrictions are not possible, transparency to the users involved know when their privacy is being violated (or was violated). A simple icon or indicator when anybody is in the room with you, as in the original post, would suffice.
Even if legitimate uses of joining
private worlds
exist (I'm skeptical this can ever be justified, legal reasons aside): this is why a strongly worded privacy policy and transparency would go a long way to maintaining confidence.Baby Doll
Indeed, it is my opinion that no one should be able to violate rooms without permission, and if a dev is on official business then their presence must be made known immediately. Anything less and that's a violation of the highest order, and that would have consequences.
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EvolvedAnt
Moderators are absolutely NOT allowed to enter private instances of a room without permission through an invite or someone in the room reporting an issue that needs moderator attention. A moderator breaking this rule will get in a LOT of trouble. I've brought this topic up before, as there was an issue where moderators on your friend list, could join your private room by accident because the UI didn't let them know it was a private room, and the result of that was the UI was updated to make it more obvious which rooms are private, and warn moderators so they don't accidentally join a friend that is in a private room.
Private rooms are actually a LOT more secure now than they've ever been before, but of course no security is perfect in the software world, so don't say social numbers, etc, ever in VRChat. But otherwise you should feel relatively safe that private matters are kept that way in a private room, given that the players inside it are not recording/streaming, etc.. of course.
Some little tips, if you make your own world, there are extra things you can do to make it even more secure if you are still worried. For example a trigger that plays an alarm sound whenever someone joins (invisible moderators still activate triggers as far as I am aware), a lobby that you need to know a password to teleport to the main area of your world (so anyone who joins that isn't supposed to be there still can't find you or be near enough to hear something they shouldn't), don't ever give out a world id to your private world, etc, etc. But honestly right now, none of that should really be necessary.
Digitrevx
I can't think of a case where I've seen this to be an issue. But if it was and it was changed how can you be sure it is a rule that is being followed if they are invisible? I do agree being invisible period is creepy.
ZircronSwift
I would have to agree that it should be basic courtesy for there to be an indication of additional, uninvited members that joined in on the room. If a coordinated party had a time to meet privately, and it were monitored without consent, it would be considered unacceptable behaviour in the real world setting, and it shouldn't be any different in the virtual space.
Ideally, it is an invite only, private room for a reason, and should be kept as such. However, as moderation is there for a reason, I would agree that a compromise for an indicator (or invisibility disabled) would at least would give the user the added trust based on courtesy .
Zarniwoop
I think this could be really important.
There is a certain user in VRchat who brings in their patients into VRchat with them sometimes and uses it for therapy. If I were in their shoes knowing that at least in private worlds everything said would actually be private, and not have to worry about eavesdropping by invisible mods would be great.
Hagbard Celine
Zarniwoop: I had a discussion with another world creator who wanted to be able to enter private instances of his world. I told him about the very same guy you have in mind and that it would not be nice to do that. Didn't even think about mods at this time. I have to agree, if mods enter private worlds they should not be invisible.